HOWEDY tara aka tarag aka tara.green2 you pathetic miserable stinkin
lyin animal murderin active acute chronic life long incurable drunken
drug crazed MENTAL CASE,
Since I got my maltese terrier 2 months ago I have been taking her with
me to my doctor who is treating me for anxiety and depression as well as
fibromalgia.
Anyways she considers my dog for me as a comfort dog during my
appointment and helps with my anxiety...
Did your doctor issue a written prescription for a "comfort dog"?
Good lord, I hope not.
Perhaps you should get your psych doc to write you a scrip for a
COMFORT DOG?
Of curse, THAT WON'T QUALIFY as a SERVICE DOG, tara g <{): ~ ) >
In order to QUALIFY as a SERVICE DOG your dog would have to
BE TRAINED to DO SUMPTHIN for your DIS-EASE, like pick up
a bottle of Ripple when it falls HOWETA your shakey hands <{): ~ ) >
Tara
"Sneaky Anger", "The Cold Shoulder", "Shaming And Beratement").
Still Crazy, After All These
Years
From: Jerry Howe
Date: Mon, Dec 30 2002 6:56 am
HOWEDY tara.green2,
But firt, your LEAVE IT command and PROOF that
you're not a lying dog abusing Punk Thug Coward
like Your Puppy Wizard told Canis55 the first
week you posted.
Wow. Your lies are getting easier to spot.
Shame shame, on Your Puppy Wizard. That's likely
to get his mouth washed out with soap! WATCH!
Oh? Bye the bye, what was the lie? I ought to know
before I take my punishment, tara.green2. I hope I
didn't get caught lyin about touching myself someMOORE?
I wasn't! HONEST!!! I won't do it again. I PROMISE!!!
"Nice post, Tarag. Stick around. J."
That was probably your first post I read, and I just reviewed
it, and it's still nice. Wasn't great, but nice, considering the
rest of the shit advice in that thread. I didn't go over it real
close on account of there wasn't enough knowledgeable
students to address the issues with at that time, tara.
Our group has changed significantly since then. Our group
has become a much MOORE informative, nicer place to be,
since some of our old hard core lying dog abusing Punk
Thug Coward pals haven't been posting noMOORE on
account of they can't take the EMBARRRASSMENT.
"Because if you had checked it out, you surely would have
known that this really is a *one*-sided affair. That is,
that *Jerry Howe* started all this crap, and then people
like Marilyn, Canis, and a couple others, probably trolls,
kept it rolling," lyingdogDUMMY.
You notice he ain't postin here noMOORE, tara.green2.
"They still are, too, if you're still paying any
attention to Jerry Howe, etc," lyingdogDUMMY.
Goddamned tootin. This is Your Puppy Wizard's Forum, tara.green2.
Decent people can post here but there's no decent people on
this forum because our dog lovers are lying dog abusing Thug
Cowards, tara.green, who hurt dogs because they either LIKE
to or because they NEED to on account of they ain't got the
intellect to outwit the cuninng of the domestic puppy dog
even after Your Puppy Wizard tells them HOWE for FREE and
his STUDENTS tell you HOWE THEY did it, and you still can'T
figure it out.
You call them LIARS PAID SHILLS and FORGERIES.
Only dog abusers were welcome here when you first came in.
You had a LITTLE MOORE savvy than the rest of our dog lovers.
That's changed, on account of there's MOORE of my successful
students been through here than dog abusers and liars like you,
tara.green2. I didn't know you were a dog abuser until your LEAVE
IT command came up...
and you pretty much stayed that way towards me until I
disagreed with your opinion on neutering.
I believe it was your LEAVE IT command... but I might be
LYING about that. NOBODY cares about YOU, tara.green2.
You're a very disturbed individual. Perhaps you was just
out takin care of your elbow, and can't remember so good,
tara.green2?
From: Tara G (***@gateway.net)
Subject: Re: Sound Distraction And Praise - According
To The Wits' End Dog Training Method - End Your Dog's
Ability To Pull Your Chain
Newsgroups: rec.pets.dogs.health
Date: 2001-03-08 18:44:08 PST
Patch, all you got to see was what he cross posted to this ng. If you
*really* want to see abuse, go over to rec.pets.dogs.behavior and just
read his posts for as long as you can stand it.
There is absolutely nothing wrong (and, IMO....everything right) with
positive based training. Trouble with the crackpot is, he'll abuse
people for not doing it HIS way.....no matter how positive it is.
Oh, and some of his advice is just plain absurd (for example....check
out his advice for "separation anxiety"....what a joke).
=============================
Yeah. Your Puppy Wizard LAUGHS at all dog behavior
problems, tara.green2. Dog training is EZ if you know
HOWE. Try laughin along with my students.
professor SCRUFF SHAKE dermer CURED his little hyperactive
obsessive compulsive magnificent masturbator Maxie's chronic
urinary / digestive tract problems by washin his tallywhacker
for five minutes at bedtime with aloe gel on a warm moist
towel <{) : ~ ) >
You might wanna try THAT three times a day.
OtherWIZE, you'll likeWIZE find The Sincerely Incredibly Freakin
Insanely Simply Amazing GRAND Puppy, Child, Pussy, Birdy And Horsey
Wizard's NON PHYSCIAL C-HOWENTER CONditioning aka The Insanely
Freakin Simply Amazing Grand Puppy Wizards' Surrogate Toy Separation
AnXXXIHOWESNESS / Bed Time Calming / Fear Of Thunder / Car Sickness /
Submissive Urination / Obsessive Compulsive Masturbation / Chronic
Urinary Tract / Bladder / Irritable BHOWEL / Spay Incontinence /
Obsessive Compulsive Marking / Self-Mutilation / Spraying / Defecating
/
Vomiting / Garbage Bin Raiding / Kat Food Stealin / Bell / Siren
HOWEling /
WHINING / Barking / Paw Licking / Fear Aggression / Overtime Working
Syndrome Technique effective as prophylaxis MOST problems that occur
when a dog or child are left alone for a while LIKE HOWE YOU WAS WHEN
YOU WAS ABANDONED BY YOUR DRUNKIN DRUG CRAZED PARENTS, taragreen <{); ~
) >
HOWE'D you like to CURE obsessive compulsive behaviors
like fear of thunder, separation anXXXIHOWESNESS, car
sickness, aggression, shyness, self mutilation IN WON DAY
MAYBE FASTER, MAYBE INSTANTLY?
MAYBE EVEN YOUR OWN PHOBIAS ADDICTIONS AND ANGER, tarag?
LIKE THIS:
LIKE THIS:
Date: 2001-11-14 09:13:21 PST
Hi!
I have downloaded Wit's End Dog Training Method...
In there there is that trick with a toy about
"Separation anxiety surrogate toy technique."
Anybody has tried that... I would like to give
it a try with my GSP (German shorthair.....pointer)
Comments? Yves Dussault
Yves,
I for one have tried it... in fact I use this all
the time. I just used it last evening while my
husband and I went out to see "The Mummy Returns"
(a horrible turkey of a movie, but at least the
house wasn't chewed from end to end in the meantime).
Yes, it really works. :-) So do the other
distraction/praise techniques described therein.
If you are interested in the manual, you will
probably want to begin the exercises as well.
Regards,
Lisa
----------------------
AND LIKE THIS:
"Just Want To Second Jerry's Method For
Dealing With This (Destructive Separation
Anxiety). I've Suggested It To Quite A Few
Clients Now And It's Worked 'EVERY TIME
The Very First Time' - marilyn, Trainer, 33
Years Experience.
AND LIKE THIS:
From: Marilyn Rammell (***@hotmail.com)
Subject: Re: Separation anxiety (?) help needed!
Date: 1999/10/13
Hi Steve,
Just want to second Jerry's method for dealing with this -
I've suggested it to quite a few clients now and it's worked
'every' time.
It sounds a little 'amusing' I agree, but it really works.
Two of the occasions it's worked have been when the
owners were almost at the point of giving up (one had
actually put their dog into kennels for a few days so
that they could re-decorate the demolition done by the dog).
They rang me while the dog was still in kennels and were
not yet decided whether to collect the dog or not.
The very first time they tried Jerry's method, it worked.
Best of luck,
Marilyn Rammell
===============
Subject: To Jerry
1 From: MarilynRammell
Date: Tues, Aug 3 1999 3:00 am
Email: "MarilynRammell" <***@hotmail.com>
Groups: rec.pets.dogs.behavior
Hello Jerry,
A client of mine asked to say a 'big thank you' to you.
They have a 8 month spaniel that they were about to get
rid of.
In fact they had put her into kennels for a few day while
they 'thought it through'. They rang me the day before
they were due to collect her.
She had wrecked their home - everytime they left her she
destroyed something else. The walls, the cabinets, the
carpets, table legs, chair legs, - anything and everything.
They collected her and brought her to me. I gave them some
routine training exercises, and also I wrote out your advice
(I will say at this point that I was not sure about it at all,
and felt a little embarrassed - it was the advice about the
'toy dog that gets the praise for not making a mess'.
Anyway, this was 11 days ago and I heard nothing. Yesterday
they turned up at the new Monday evening class. They were
absolutely delighted.
They told me that after just one attempt, (your toy suggestion)
she 'stopped all the destruction'. They were in tear of happiness
while telling me.
Thank you Jerry.
Respectfully,
Marilyn
----------------
AND LIKE THIS:
From: Hoku Beltz
To: The Puppy Wizard
Sent: Thursday, September 26, 2002 6:12 PM
Subject: Mahalo
Aloha Jerry,
Just wanted to let you know that the surrogate toy
technique is working wonders. I have not had a
shredded sheet for over a week now. It is nice
to be able to leave the bed made and come home
to a made bed.
Your program is awesome, but you already know
that. Keep up the good work!
Hoku
==================
LIKE THIS:
"Hoku Beltz" <***@rsphawaii.com> wrote in message news:SN2k9.45447$***@twister.socal.rr.com...
Aloha Sunny,
Just follow the training program to the letter, no matter how
insignificant some of the step seem to be and your pupy will
be a very well behaved dog in a few days.
I would seriously consider backing out of the training classes
as they will conflict with the Wit's End principles.
I went the training route first, and still had problems until I
found Wits' End. Now I have two "new and improved" dogs.
You won't be dissapointed if you follow the program.
Good luck,
Hoku
==================
AND LIKE THIS:
"Anthony Testa" <testa52> wrote in message
We came home to almost $1,000 in damage.
Furniture, the blinds were all chewed and torn
down, etc. The next day we put her in the crate
again. This time we came home to a nice 2' x 3'
hole in our carpet in the middle of the living room,
right down to the cement.
I told my wife that we cannot afford to keep this dog.
We should go out and get a puppy.
<SNIP>
First, at no cost he sent us his manual. We started
doing exactly what he said to do in the manual.
Exactly as we did was was written, the results were
exactly as he said it would be. Then we purchased
the DDR.
This is an amazing god send to us.
First of all, Jerry sent it to us without paying. (thanks
for that gesture) This has such and AMAZING effect.
This testimonial is kind of winded so I will say this......
Jerry's product literally saved this dogs life.
Angel can be left alone during the day. NO CRATE. The
dog shows absolutely no sign of anxiety at all. Jerry
told us the product works immediately and it did! She
does not bark at all during the day except when the
mailman drops mail into the slot on the door.
The manual for training works exactly as it says!
<SNIP>
Jerry, after reading some of the threads in the news
group, I can't for the life of me understand why this
many people are so dang blind or ignorant.
You just keep plugging away at what you do, because
you my friend are a life saver!!!
Anytime you need someone to speak about the results
of your product, you have my number. We would galdly
talk to them.
Thank you very much for all your help.
God bless you...
Anthony & Linda Testa
Jacksonville, Florida
----------
AND LIKE THIS:
From: Chris Williams (***@webtv.net)
Subject: Re: Thank you Jerry Howe
Date: 2002-03-26 08:16:19 PST
Engrossing account, Anthony. Our best to Angel
and your family.
A friend, who socializes the kittens I've taken
from a feral cat colony, is using the DDR.
She reports far fewer panic problems than
she's had before.
===================
Chris Williams writes:
"The FREE Wits' End Dog Training Method manual
I do find valuable. Much of it I recognize as what
I've always done without thinking of it as "training".
New stuff, I've used. His anchoring technique erased
the last of Mac's fireworks trauma,"
====================
AND LIKE THIS:
Dave Cohen <***@total.net writes:
Re: Barking Deterrants Needed...
Hi. Please understand that I do not know Jerry and have
spoken with him briefly once by email.
I have no stake or interest in the success of his
business. I simply want to thank him publicly for one
of his tips, with regards to separation anxiety.
I thought it seemed far fetched to praise a stuffed
animal and then say good bye to my own dog, but
I am usually a very open minded person, so I tried it.
Well, lo and behold- the damn trick worked!
I think Jerry has some intriguing techniques, and
personally I think everyone who constantly criticizes
him is not understanding his logic. Thank you Jerry!
===================
AND LIKE THIS:
"Dan Moore" ***@worldnet.att.net
wrote in message news:fS2Lc.114567$***@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.
Tracy,
What worked for me, in just one storm,
was to praise the dog after each clap
of thunder, telling him he's a Good Dog!
This is an almost 13 year old Doberman, BTW.
The next time it thundered, he did not even react at
all--you could not tell it was the same dog as before.
There was more thunder just the other day, and same
thing, nada, nothing, zilch, no cowering, whimpering,
trying to hide at all, it was that simple.
I got this idea from Jerry Howe, who might seem
to be a "wild and crazy" character, but his non-
abusive way of handling dogs WORKS.
Wonderfully.
Praise.
It's that simple.
Juanita
========================
AND LIKE THIS:
"nesskay" <***@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:***@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
It has been a couple of months since we have initiated Jerry Howe's
recommendations for resolving the separation anxiety in our chocolate
lab. We have seen remarkable results.
She can now be left on our houseboat and we can return with
all of the wood trim and/or blinds intact. Before we spoke with
Jerry and started the training, we could not leave her without
her barking in a high pitch incessantly.
I had resorted to "building her a pen" with pieces of chair railing,
putting chairs in front of windows, and moving the bed so that she
could not get to the blind (again!). It would take about 10-15 minutes
of planning and moving things before we could leave.
Even with that, she would find something to destroy. We NOW
use the surrogate toy method and can go out, shop, go to dinner
or whatever, without any problems.
She is glad to see us when we return, but no longer frantic.
I am so happy that this seems to be the norm now.
Another problem that we had with her was although she would
not destroy the house, she would leave us runny poop in several
places.(kind of the same as destroy I guess). I tried to blame this
on her diet, but realized that her anxiety level was so high that
she just had no control. Now, the only time that she has done
that is when she devoured a diaper from the trash!!!
Jerry's methods work. I found him by typing in separation
anxiety+orlando florida into Google, otherwise I don't want
to Speculate what could have happened with Amelia.
We were at our Wit's End!!!!!! Thanks so much Jerry.
We have given your URL to everyone we know with a dog.
Your methods work. The others that we tried did not.
It is that simple!
Thank you, Thank you Thank you!
Nancy and Amelia
---------------------
AND LIKE THIS:
From: "LESPERANCE/DEAKIN" <***@total.net>
Date: 1999/10/06
Subject: Re: Separation Anxiety
Well Jerry, I have to hand it to you. It worked!
Our dog was very well behaved until I had to go on the
road for my work this summer. I was gone twice for 10
long days each time. Although there were still people
home, I am the "primary care-giver" to my dog, so he
became destructive (shoes, books, rugs, papers etc)
We have a crate, but I believe it is too small for him
now - he is a cross golden/gsd and when he sits or stands
he cannot hold his head up as the top is too low, so I
didn't want to crate him while I went to work for sometimes
8 hours.
Anyway, I decided to try your method with the toy.
I would find a toy, tell it to be good and place it in
his crate. After just 3 days, there was no more destruction
in the house - even when daughter or hubby forgot to put
their shoes away! Now the toy stays in the crate all day,
and he even crawls in to be with the "good toy" when I leave.
He seems quite proud when we come home.
I have not tried the can thing - don't quite understand
that, so I think my dog may be confused too!
Marcie (Winslow's mom)
AND LIKE THIS:
From: Eric
To: ***@bellsouth.net
Sent: Friday, November 29, 2002 7:54 AM
Subject: just checking in...
Jerry!
You helped me with my pal Dundee about
a year ago regarding submissive peeing.
Just wanted to let you know he's doing
great- he was "cured" in about 2 days
using your techniques!
He has since become the "smartest dog
in the world"! Once I stopped thinking like
a human and got inside his head, I can
teach him ANYTHING, usually in a matter
of minutes.
Makes me look like an expert dog-trainer.
I rescued two strays last week, cleaned 'em up,
wormed 'em, and am getting them their shots. Time
to get inside their heads and teach them to teach
themselves how to be good dogs!
Instead of feeling like "training" is a chore, I
look forward to working with these guys a
couple times a day...
Although I don't follow your instructions "to
a T", I learned from you to "think like a dog"
and stimulate their brain rather than beating
ass or pinching, or any of that nonsense.
I know damn well I would NOT be loyal
to someone who beat MY ass lol!
Well, just wanted to thank you for rattling the
bushes out there and teaching folks the RIGHT
way to "train" dogs.
A horseman friend of mine uses very similar techniques in
training his horses- he calls it "natural horsemanship".
He is hated by nearly all the local "trainers"
yet somehow he repeatedly wins at every
show he attends. He rarely shows any more,
but goes now and then to rub their noses in it
(pun intended)... Too cool....
Have a great holiday season and keep up
the good work!
Eric , Dundee, Sammy, and Maynard
====================
AND LIKE THIS:
Date: 5/22/03 11:24:35 PM Eastern
Daylight Time
From: ***@cfl.rr.com
To: ***@aol.com
Well, let me tell you, your Wits' End
Dog Training Method works.
My dog, Dasie, Loves to chase chameleons
around the barbecue on the patio. I
used this system on four different occasions.
When she went out today, she looked
everywhere else but the barbecue.
Amazing, just amazing.
I will write to Amanda about the video.
I am really excited to learn more, and
understand. Maybe just a little reassurance
that I am going about it the right way.
Thanks again
Paul
===========
AND LIKE THIS:
From: AIMEE (***@yahoo.com)
Subject: House training and such...
Date: 2003-10-08 16:18:56 PST
I've been having a problem with my dog, Axel,
relieving himself in the house while I'm away
from home.
I've used TPW method's, and yesterday I was out
for 12 hours, and Axel didn't have one single "accident".
Today, I had hoped that the results would be just as
good - and they were (I was out for 11 hours).
The problem began when, as a puppy, Axel would
relieve himself in the house and I would point
at the mess and tell him "NO" or "Bad Dog".
That made him afraid to relieve himself in the
house or infront of me.
After I got TPW's training manual, I corrected my
mishandling of these instances.
When I came home to an "accident", I would simply
drop a can near the area and ask Axel "What's that?"
Then I would clean it up - with out showing him I was
the least bit upset about the mess, and when he looked
at the spot I would tell him "Good boy, you're a good dog".
This has been an ongoing problem, and thanks to the
Puppy Wizard, we've finally got it taken care of...
Also, Axel LOVES the cat's litter box...He enjoys the
"snacks" he can find in there...I followed TPW's methods
by alternating sounds and praising him while or before
he sticks his nose in it, and today, he's been going into
the room with the cat box and barking. That's because
he's thinking about getting into the box, but he knows he
shouldn't.
Thank you, Jerry, for all you help.
You've been a blessing to all of us.
AIMEE
-----------------------
From: AIMEE (***@yahoo.com):
I own a black an tan coonhound. We got him
as a puppy, and due to constant mishandling
(pulling on his lead, negative corrections, and
the occasional use of a bark collar) I ended
up with a very anxious dog.
I couldn't leave him home alone, I couldn't
crate him, I couldn't even take my dog for
walks because he feared EVERYTHING.
I was going to have to get rid of him if things
didn't turn around.
My husband and I searched the internet for
answers - AND WE FOUND THE PUPPY WIZARD.
For all of you disbeliveers out there HIS METHODS WORK!
I've followed his manual, and we now have a
dog that can be left home alone, that heels
on command, that can go outside and NOT
be afraid of everything he sees.
Not only have his methods helped our dog, but
our marriage has gotten better. We had fallen
into a rut - constant bickering and tension, we
never laughed or had FUN together - but now,
with the same mindset used in THE PUPPY
WIZARDS dog training, our communications
channels have opened, and we now work
together instead of against one another.
For all the "Literalists" out there, NO WE DID
NOT TEACH EACH OTHER TO SIT, STAY,
OR HEEL.
We simply eliminated the nagging and the acting out to get
NEGATIVE attention from one another since we weren't getting
the POSITIVE attention we wanted.
So, it's been proven - THE PUPPY WIZARDS
METHODS WORK.
It's up to you to accept them. Yes, there's alot of blame
that we have to accept, but once we realize that we've caused
these problems to arise, we can strive to make things better.
AIMEE
=============
There's LOTS an LOTS MOORE JUST LIKE THEM'S tara green 2.
You're a pathetic miserable stinkin lyin animal abusin
punk thug coward active acute chronic long term incurable
mental case an YOU CAN'T POST HERE abHOWETS nodoGdamenD
MOORE you drunken drug crazed victim of parental abuse.
JUST LIKE HOWE Robin REPORTED RIGHT HERE <{); ~ ) >
LIKE THIS YOU MISERABLE STINKIN LYIN ANIMAL MURDERIN MENTAL CASE:
From: Robin <***@yahoo.com>
Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 22:49:15 -0700
Subject: Re: Paging Puppy Wizard
you must have missed his posts where he shows
he's psycho and not worth 10 seconds worth of time
I disagree. If you can look past the way he communicates,
How he communicates is precisely the point. The reason
rational people no longer listen to the "puppy wizard"
has nothing to do with grammar
Kurtis,
I believe myself to be rational (I'm not saying this
defensively), and the reactions from the people in my
world (friends, family, tradespeople, neighbors,
acquaintences, business people, my healthcare givers,
and it goes on and on) seem to reflect that I probably
am rational.
Kurtis, the reason I look beyond the exterior, is
because sometimes, not always, there is something
of value. I've found this to be true many times in
my life.
If you've been following my posts, I have a difficult
situation with my little dog, and I've followed all the
mainstream thinking and techniques for separation anxiety,
to no avail.
One of the reasons I decided to take Jerry's manual more
seriously was the feedback from those who had who had
achieved positive results. And I'm glad I did (please
see my post to Jerry about tonight's session using Jerry's
SA technique).
or spelling. It is about his surety that he has the
only valid viewpoint and all others are wrong.
Kurtis, I say this gentle respect (tone can be misinterpreted
with this form of communication) - read again what you said
above. You are doing what you accuse Jerry of, the surety
that you have the only valid viewpoint and all others (who
support Jerry) are wrong. (i.e. they're not rational).
It is about his atrocious manners. It is about his
presumption to know enough about an individual to
judge them an abuser of animals from a single usenet
message.
I can't argue with you. But this doesn't have the
same emotional charge for me as it does for you.
Please know he has supporters, some of whom doctorate
level professionals, and this is for a reason.
I know plenty of "smart" people who believe in astrology
and homeopathy. Just because someone is knowledgeable about
one topic does not preclude them being idiots in other areas.
Kurtis, please listen to yourself; your judgement about
people who believe in astrology and homeopathy (idiots?),
you are so unwielding and harsh ("the surety that you have
the only valid viewpoint and all others are wrong.")
Personally, I like Jerry. He's a colorful character,
to say the least,
I like colorful people as well. The world would be
extremely boring and limited if everyone were like
me. But just because someone has a different worldview,
style of dress, or speaking style doesn't mean I should
treat them as an authority on an arbitrary subject.
No need to treat or think of him as an authority!
(Ooops! <{); ~ ) > )
I've read way too many posts by PW and visited his web site.
While there are nuggets of useful information in what he says
I can get the same advice from other sources
(CITES PLEASE??? <{); ~ ) > )
without the abuse.
(Seems kurtis means EMBARRASSMENT <{); ~ ) > )
Now Kurtis, you know the same advice is not available
elsewhere. You're speaking an untruth to give weight
to your arguement.
I'm going to receive all kind of flack for this statement -
there's something about Jerry that has completely pushed your
buttons, and it has nothing to do with Jerry.
(Hint: look to one or both of your parents for the
source of this anger, that's who you're angry at)
I KNOW I'm going to regret having said that, but
this is kind of mood I'm in right now.
Anyway, you seem like a nice guy.
Best regards, Robin
----------------
DOGS DIE ON ACCHONWETA ABUSERS LIKE YOU TARA GREEN 2:
Subject: puppy behavior
31From: tarag
Date: Tues, Aug 10 1999 12:00 am
Email: "tarag" <***@gateway.net>
I always find it interesting (and very sad) when dog
trainers who are strong propponents (and rightly so)
of humane methods don't apply that information to
their dealings with other people.
ANY time abuse or harsh treatment is used - whether
to a dog or a human, or any being for that matter -
the message is lost and only hurt, confusion and
anger result. The REALLY sad part is that, in the
bickering back and forth, the original problem that
the dogs owner asked for help with became secondary
to other peoples doctrines and egos.
I wonder how much Dan was actually helped by some of those postings.
A really wise trainer told me when I was studying
that "There are usually 2 types of people who become
dog trainers: those with a desperate need to control,
and those with a desperate need to communicate".
In all honesty, I think I started training for the
former reason, but I take great pains to try and
shift my focus to the latter. I find it is the only
productive way.
You can't help a dog if you piss of the owner.
------------------
You mean like Muttley, taragreen2?
IT'S OVER, taragreen2. The Amazing Puppy Wizard's
100% CONSISTENTLY NEARLY INSTANTLY SUCCESSFUL
FREE WWW Wits' End Dog Training Method Manual
Students REPORT CURING ALL temperament and
behavior problems NEARLY INSTANTLY, and you
punk thug coward mental cases call them liars
and play silly games WARNING folks NOT TO BELIEVE
them, tarag.
You punk thug coward mental cases have been IDENTIFIED
EXXXPOSED and DISCREDITED twenty ways to the middle BY
QUOTING YOUR OWN WORDS.
LIKE THIS you miserable pathetic drunken drug craze Sadist:
From: Tara G
Date: Fri, Mar 31 2000 12:00 am
Email: Tara G <***@gateway.net>
Groups: alt.support.divorce
Thanks for this reply, Victoria.
I have lived with depression since I was 12 or 13 years old.
Grand generalizations like the one the poster made sometimes cause a
stupid "knee-jerk" reaction in me. I'm glad I read your post before
replying.
It would be really really nice if the world actually worked the way
that
B4 thinks it should. But, I know it don't work that way for me :)
Oddly enough, I *used* to be against taking "happy pills" (as I used to
call Anti-Depressants....before I was educated about them). I thought
people were supposed to just "tough it out" and figure out what was
*causing* the depression. While I still believe in that last part, it
isn't *always* possible to do that without extra help.
I see nothing at all wrong with needing help and recieving it in order
to move forward in working through something like depression (or many
other issues as well).
Tara
62God's Christian Laws?
From: Tara - view profile
Date: Sun, Nov 14 1999 12:00 am
Email: Tara <***@gateway.net>
Groups: alt.recovery.aa
On Sat, 13 Nov 1999 20:35:50 -0500, "Derek M."
so a child beaten and or molested by his/her father/mother
for years should still honor and obey or what they suffer
through is their own fault?
I was wondering who was gonna post that question. I have no
idea what Don would say, but in my own recovery I've thought
on this long.
To me, the key words are "to honor." To me, to honor means
to treat honestly and with respect.
I honored my father when I called the police and reported him. I
honored myself that day, my mother and my brother too. I told my
father I would no longer accept his violent behavior, that he was very
ill and if he refused to get help I would help get him locked up.
I don't respect or honor him by remaining silent in the face of abuse,
or thanking him for it, or forgiving him for it. I respected all of
us, finally, the day I refused to tolerate it.
I've met everything from Catholic priests, TM instructors, Daoist
monks and ignorant neighbors who are sure I am quite wrong in this
thinking. I no longer care what they think. Because they are wrong.
Hey Derek--clip a few things once in a while. It was hard to find
what you posted in the midst of all that stuff. Glad I caught it.
Hmmm, an interesting way of looking at it. I have recently been
thinking
about this too, and this thread has been a catalyst to delving a bit
deeper than I was.
I agree with what you wrote. The only thing I would add to this is that
honoring them for me includes understanding where *they* came from as
well.
=============
They came from the same INSANITY you came from, tarag
you miserable stinkin pathetic lyin thievin animal
abusin punk thug coward active acute chronic long term
incurable mental case:
Here's the RESEARCH on hip dysplasia you IMBECILES.
Dysplasia, like scuvey is a VITAMIN C deficiency. You
MIGHT want to ASK YOUR VETERINARY MALPRACTICIONER HOWE
COME HE NEVER TOLD YOU abHOWET THIS:
http://www.belfield.com/article5.html
Seems EITHER your veterinarians or Dr. Belfield are FRAUDS.
Ask your veterinarian HOWE COME he DEFRAUDED you
and performed life threatening health damaging
inapupriate unnecessary surgery on your dog, OR
HOWE COME Dr. Belfield ain't been THROWN IN JAIL
for FRAUD likw you should be:
26From: Tara G
Date: Mon, Mar 12 2001 8:55 pm
Email: Tara G <***@gateway.net>
Groups: rec.pets.dogs.breeds
Of course I'll hafta pillage the treasury in order to pay for the vet
bills, swim therapy, medications and surgery.....so far over $8000
(though I stopped keeping track early last year, it got waaaaaaay too
depressing)
I hear you--it's now costing me over $200/month to try to keep
my dysplastic old guy as comfortable as possible--
Ouch. Poor old thang. Its just not fair.
dunno what
the cumulative total has been in the 9 years since his diagnosis,
but it's probably pretty comparable to yours.
Lordy....that was 8 grand in *one* year. If I added up what it has been
since he was diagnosed I'd probably shoot myself.
Just think, that
need could've been prevented if an irresponsible person had spent
just $100-$150 on xrays.
Yup. Though in my boy's case, they *did* have Xrays on both parents.
It
was just about stroking egos all the way around. I found out later that
the owner of the sire had a history (a loooong history) of throwing
pups
with CHD. The mother was "an ex-show dog".....with a crappy
temperament,
from what I saw.
The final straw for me, and when I "bought" my boy from the breeder
("bought" cuz I abused my proffessional connections to get him on an
IOU.....then never paid), said "breeder" was in the process of letting
him languish with Parvo. Didn't want to put the $$ into vaccs since he
wasn't getting a lot of interest from buyers.
They say that an ounce of prevention is worth a
pound of cure, but of course there *IS* no cure
for hip dysplasia :-(.
Sadly true. There are all those really expensive parts,
though. And that devastatingly difficult post-surgical
stress. And then.......
blechhhh.
Tara
THAT'S SHEER IDIOCY.
Subject: HOWE Positive Is Positive Reinforcement?
1From: The Puppy Wizard
Date: Thurs, Oct 23 2003 11:02 am
Email: "The Puppy Wizard" <***@earthlink.net>
HOWEDY People,
Here's some malarkey from HOWER respected ethical
breeder lyin frosty dahl discussing karen pryor's click/treat
method... and HOWE "positive training" is not positive.
Then we got a couple of FACTS from The Puppy
Wizzzard about HOWE COME HOWER EXXXPERT
trainers cause seizures and other temperament and
behavior problems:
From: Amy Dahl (***@oakhillkennel.com)
Subject: Musings on Discipline
Date: 1999/11/02
Karen Pryor relates an anecdote in "Lads Before the Wind."
She and another trainer are walking toward a tank/platform
where a porpoise show is in progress. The trainer with
her is an accomplished senior trainer who has worked with
the porpoise currently performing. The trainer conducting
the show is a relatively inexperienced junior trainer, and
the porpoise is lounging in the water, not responding to
the cue for a high jump.
From some distance away, the trainer accompanying Pryor
calls the porpoise's name in stern tones. The porpoise
gives him a startled look and immediately executes the
high jump."
=========================================
For a long time I thought there couldn't possibly be any
real discipline in a system of "pure positive reinforcement."
Discipline got to mean HURT, to HOWER dog lovers.
This story is a counterexample.
Only on account of HOWER dog lover lying frosty
dahl wants to see punishment in the c/t method
only in order to justify her own PREFERENCE of
punishment.
It appears that the senior trainer, David, had established
*authority* to which the porpoise responded.
IOW, the animal was AFRAID of the trainer.
Certainly the trainers can do things, in the approach used
by Pryor et al., which the subjects found unpleasant, mainly
"pick up the fish bucket and walk away."
Yeah. That's HOWE COME the C/T method FAILS the
US Military Marine Animals 10% of the time, from the git go.
Other anecdotes suggest that coherence and clarity are
important to animals
They're DUMB ANIMALS.
being trained with reinforcement according to the principles
of operant conditioning,
Here, OC means PAIN FEAR FORCE and INTIMIDATION.
just as they are with the dogs I train by force.
Not quiet, lying frosty dahl.
What is discipline really?
In animals, it's an unethical abuse of authority.
Anyone care to take a shot at defining it?
You'll end up in jail as an animal abuser...
How "positive" is positive reinforcement?
Here we HURT animals to train them.
The porpoises in Pryor's work only receive food by working
for it--there is an implied threat: if you don't work, you
starve.
Yeah. That's HOWE COME there's a built in 10% FAILURE
rate soon as the critters reach open water and FREE FOOD.
If I understand correctly,
You'll LIE to defend your sick and sickening POV.
porpoises are somewhat fragile and a couple of days
without food may be life-threatening.
BWWWAAHAHAHAHAAAA!!! According to your skinnerain
method you just got to reduce their food intake 20%... to
MOTIVATE the critter to naturally WANT to do ANYTHING
you ask...
Or is it reading too much into the situation to call it a
"threat," when the necessity of doing some kind of work in
order to eat is in inherent part of life for a wild porpoise?
No MOORE than gettin beat with a stick or shocked. Lucky
for them they ain't got ears to be pinched and twisted.
I'd really like to hear from people who have some familiarity
with PR training and want to comment on the role of
discipline, how it is established etc.
It's not something HOWER dog abusers are able to understand...
--
Amy Frost Dahl Retriever Training phone: (910) 295-6710
Oak Hill Kennel & Handling email: ***@oakhillkennel.com
Pinehurst, NC 28370 (http://www.oakhillkennel.com)
From: Mud E Poz (***@aol.com)
Subject: Re: Musings on Discipline
Date: 1999/11/03
I live in the city that contains the Queen OF Positive
reinforcement, called the third way. Interesting.
Interesting? You wanna see INTERESTING? It's INTERESTING
that karen pryor KILLED HER KAT cause she couldn't C/T IT
not to piss in her stove top.
INTERESTING that she admits to not being a particularly
good dog trainer.
INTERESTING that bribing animals FAILS at least 10%
of the time according to the US Military Marine Mammals
Corps.
I use motivational methods.
That so? You're a liar and a dog abuser to boot.
Food for GOOD DOG,
You BRIBE and WITHHOLD treats.
and no food when not good.
And tha's positive motivation? No. That's HOWE COME you
KILLED YOUR DOG Quark.
An amazing thing.
INDEEDY! Your "training" caused the seizures for which YOU KILLED
HIM.
I don't have to yell, cause pain, or irritate my competition
bitch. She KNOWS she is wrong when I give her the LOOK,
You mean, when you INTIMIDATE IT...
and she tries very hard to correct it.
That's positive training here abHOWETS.
Her son, goes into the giggles.
That's ANXIETY.
My rescue
The WON you KILLED?
used to like to see how many ways he could do things.
I train all the same way. I have gotten EXCELLENT results,
but the dogs themselves respond VERY differently:)
Yeah. Some of them have seizures and GET DEAD.
Mindy and the Muddy paws pack
U- CDX Strange Quark UDT,OA,NAJ, CGC (Retired,
8 UDX legs, 20 OTCh points, epilepsy too severe:(U-CDX
Tribute's Three X The Charm UD,TDX,OA,NAJ,CGC working
on OTCh and UDX) and her11 month old son Muddy Paws
Tri the Truth TD (5 Breed points:)
From: Lynn Kosmakos (***@home.com)
Subject: Re: Musings on Discipline
Date: 1999/11/03
What is discipline really?
In the example you gave, discipline was an
understanding in common between the trainer
and animal about expectations.
RIGHT! IOW, you're lying and attributing things to
DUMB ANIMALS that you couldn't attribute to a child...
A certain level of performance was expected by the trainer
Or the critter would get PUNISHED.
and understood by the animal.
INDEED.
And maybe that's not a bad overall definition.
Right. Ask mud e poz.
Lynn K.
From: Hlywud (***@yahoo.com.invalid)
Subject: Re: Musings on Discipline
Date: 1999/11/03
That so? The rules that sez you can jerk and choke and
shock and withhold food from dumb animals?
1) Only one player may make the rules.
Yeah... That's The Puppy Wizzzard.
2) All the players must understand the rules.
Yeah. We're workin on that right now...
3) All players must understand who makes the rules.
You bums ain't gonna like this...
4) The rules must remain black and white, with no gray area.
Yeah. We're gonna get LAWS passed protecting J.Q. Pubic from
being abused by lying dog abusing Punk Thug Cowards who
hurt and kill dogs and try to get HOWET callin THAT, training.
It's the reponsibility of the rule maker not only make the
rules, but to make sure all the players understand #'s 1-4.
Yeah. Or HURT and KILL the animal, when IT don't undersand.
From: Tara (***@gateway.net)
Subject: Re: Musings on Discipline
Date: 1999/11/05
Hmmmm, what a great topic, Amy. Thanks for bringing it up.
I hope that there will be lots of interesting responses.
Yeah. We've got quite a few very interesting case histories of
HOWER dog lovers hurtin and killing dogs and tryin to get
HOWET callin THAT, training.
To me, discipline is mostly about placing *limits* on behavior.
Right. Limits.
I know that this is too general a term to be much help
No problemo! We'll just limit PAIN FEAR FORCE and INTIMIDATION.
(and I'll explain further), but I think that the term "limits"
is a subtle shift from thinking about "disciplining" a dog.
Yeah. It's all abHOWET semantics here abHOWETS.
To me, discipline implies punishment (in the colloquial sense),
You mean HURTIN and INTIMIDATING.
while placing limits implies that the handler is responsible
for *preventing* self rewards for certain behaviors.
IOW, MANAGEMENT, not training.
I haven't read the KP book that you are refering to, so I'm
not sure about the "food for survival" thing....
HOWE do you think we motivate HOWER critters to want
their food bribes?
I'm surprised that the *only* way that the porpoises
(porpoisi? <BG>) got to eat was to work for it.
That's the essence of C/T. The treats are part of the daily diet.
That's not been my experience with treat based reward training.
Right. That's HOWE COME you got to HURT your dogs
to train them.
I have to say, though, that I have worked with *many*
dogs that are "slow eaters" (leave their food in the bowl
all day) who act like they haven't eaten in weeks once
I picked up a handful of their food and started working
with them.
Yeah... cause of the threat of LOSING IT.
Same food, out of the same bowl (which was still
sitting where they left it), but suddenly it was an interesting
interaction for the pup.
No, it was suddenly in jeopardy of bein STOLEN by his handler.
When I first start working with a class or a new pup,
I generally limit their behavior by preventing any fun
(or self-rewards) for undesirable behaviors.
That's IDIOCY. You cannot train a behavior you PREVENT.
If they pull....we go nowhere....
BWWAAAHAHAHAHAHAAAA!!! You mean, you oppose the dog
and prevent IT from enjoying being with you till IT stops pullin.
if they look up at the handler, praise, handler brings the treat
to their left side, pup follows, handler starts walking as they
release the treat.
That's pathetic.
All rewards disappear if the pup does not give
the desired behavior.
That's IDIOCY. That increases ANXIHOWESNESS.
Tons of rewards appear if s/he does.
You mean a jackpot? You're a imbecile. Dogs do not
understand or appreciate "jackpots."
The praise is a reward, the treat is a reward,
*and* the moving forward is a reward.
BWWWAAHAHAHAHAHAAAA!!!
BUT THERE'S NO REWARD IN JUST WORKING FOR YOU.
I don't do PP work
IOW, you mean you DO HURT your dogs.
(not sure if I ever will),
Because that's your human nature.
but I understand that they take this "limiting" of
undesirable behaviors
That's IDIOCY! You cannot BREAK a behavior you LIMIT. In order
to BREAK a behavior, you got to ELICIT it, and THEN interrupt
the thought process, and not by bribing or giving an alternate
incompatible behaivor.
THAT'S HOWE COME YOU GOT TO HURT DOGS
TO TRAIN THEM.
and apply it to what others do as "aversive" training as well.
You mean, HURT the dog.
For the "Leave it" command (which we used to teach
using aversives only),
You mean by jerking and choking the dog on a pronged spiked
pinch choke collar or shocking IT.
many PPers
You mean trainers who do not HURT dogs, but inclduding
those who do bribe and withhold treats...
will have the dog on lead, walk up to a "Leave it" object,
stand a few feet away, and say the command.
You mean, scream LEAVE IT at the dog?
If the dog is staring intently at it, *nothing* happens...
the dog doesn't get to grab the object, doesn't get to self
reward in any way. When the dog *chooses* to look away from
the object, *then* play/fun/reward/treat/praise can happen....
but not before.
That's idiocy.
In my training (mostly PR)
Mostly positive reinforcement with a bunch of bribes,
withholding, PAIN, FEAR, FORCE, INTIMIDATION resulting
in DEATH?
I lay the foundation using the same type of setting limits.
You mean, by AVOIDING behaivors you cannot train...
The dog is prevented from making the wrong choice,
Thereby not having any choice, therefore, NOT LEARNING.
and rewarded for making the right one....in virtually all things.
BWWAWAHAAAHAHAHAHAHAAAA!!!
YOU HURT AND KILL DOGS TO TRAIN THEM.
For later work,
You mean, after the dog is TRAINED?
we introduce corrections as P-,
IOW, YOU HURT THE DOG.
removing a/the desired outcome for the dog if they do
not comply.
You mean, PREVENTING the undesirable behavior the dog WANTED to
do...
This can be devastating to the dog without inhibiting
behavior, IMO.
You're doubletalkin us nHOWE...
For certain things, like the "Leave it" mentioned above,
The WON you jerk and choke the dog on a pronged spiked
pinch choke collar or shock IT while SCREAMIN 'LEAVE IT?"
I take a more intersactive approach than the PPers I know of.
You mean, the trainers who cannot train their dogs cause
they don't use all the tools necessary to hurt and intimidate
and limit their dog's CHOICES and preferences for PAIN?
I lay "claim" to the Leave it object by keeping myself between
the object and the dog for the *teaching* part.
Oh. To teach the dog you're his partner?
When they give up and look away, they get rewarded.
That's IDIOCY. The dog will HOWEtwit you every time.
We do use corrections
You mean, YOU HURT the dog when YOU couldn"t
make "IT" CLEAR?
for this command after the teaching phase.
WHOA! If the "teaching phase" TAUGHT, you wouldn't
NEED to HURT the dog.
As of yet, I haven't found a method that actually creates
*aversion* to the object that doesn't involve some sort of
physical (although very indirect) correction on the dog.
EXXXACTLY! THAT'S HOWE COME YOU GOT TO HURT
AND KILL DOGS TO TRAIN THEM.
Again, thanks for brining up the topic....I'd be interested
in what the others think about "discipline" as well.
Yeah. You'll notice your pals lying frosty dahl doesn't
post here noMOORE.
Tara
And neither can you... cause you're a lair
and a dog abuser and a MENTAL CASE.
The Puppy Wizard. <} ; ~ ) >
I have harbored *huge* resentments and rage towards my father and (I've
recently discovered) my mother. It has been a long road to finding
"forgiveness" (and I ain't totally there yet), but trying to understand
where they cmae from and what they were taught themselves has helped me
to "honor" them. I'm *not* talking about giving them excuses....just
finding a place of understanding in myself so that *I* can move on from
my anger.
I'm pretty tired today (I even slept right through the chat
today....sorry Jackie <sheepishly looking at my feet>) so I hope this
makes sense.
I think *both* standing up for my own truths and understanding theirs
is
where I can reach the point of really "honoring" them.
Tara
---------------
12 Anger and TarBaby
From: Tara G - view profile
Date: Wed, May 31 2000 12:00 am
Email: ***@gateway.net (Tara G)
Groups: alt.recovery.codependency
Has anyone else noticed how much a pissing contest
in newsgroups feels like fighting with a TarBaby?
If you give in to the temptation to strike back, you inevitably get more
and more stuck in the mess. Anger feels like that to me. It is okay to
FEEL it, but it is trickier to decide what to DO about it.
What a great observation, Chris. I feel the same way. I react (and
post), giving in to my temptation.......and all it does is *feed* my
anger.
If I react in anger, I frequently am disappointed with myself.
If I don't react at all, I don't get my needs met.
Somewhere in the middle is the correct place... for me at least. YMMV.
I've been reading (on and off) a few books on anger since the split
with my ex. There's a quote from one of them that resonates in my head
at different moments throughout the day.
<shuffle shuffle ......now I've got to look it up :>
Nope....too tired to find the exact quote, so I'll paraphrase.
This author describes anger as being nothing more (and nothing less)
than a signal that something is wrong. Sometimes that "something"
might be external, and sometimes it might be internal.......but he
views anger as information that something is awry.
Its interesting for me to ponder this view of anger because anger is
one of the things that scares me most - often other people's, but
mostly my own. I definitely did NOT grow up with this perspective on
anger. Anger led to abandonment, or fights or rages or character
assassinations. I think this view helps me begin to see that anger
doesn't have to be this huge venting session on someone else nor does
it have to be hidden away.........it's a signal that I am
uncomfortable and I then need to figure out how to change that.
Sometimes standing up for myself can be the catalyst for that change
(but only if it actually *can* change anything), sometimes walking
away does a LOT more to diminish the anger and resentment I'm
harboring. It is often difficult to tell which one is more helpful to
my own sense of peace in any given scenario.
And......sometimes even when the IS pretty clear, I still sometimes
figure I can get away with playing along with my anger "just this
once"....."for a higher cause, ya know" <sigh>
OK......I should never write this stuff so late at night.
Anyway, good topic, Chris. Thanks!
Tara
alt.recovery.codependency
Subject: Motivation and needs
1From: Tara G
Date: Mon, Feb 28 2000 12:00 am
Email: Tara G <***@gateway.net>
Groups: alt.recovery.codependency
Repeat after me: The only thing I can change is my reactions to outside
events. I cannot control other people. I cannot control random events.
I CAN control the way I deal with what is given to me. I CAN prepare
myself mentally, physically and emotionally to deal with stressful or
unpleasant situations. I do NOT have to "accept" other people's
expectations of me, I have to develop strong and honest expectations of
MYSELF.
You can't fix a relationship with someone that wants it to be
dysfunctional. You can't change a spiteful, bitter, manipulative, or
unfaithful person into something better. That's like buying a lottery
ticket every week and being disappointed when you lose. Instead, invest
your time and your energy in yourself first, until you have a surplus.
Then you can look for someone else to "invest" that surplus in.
Investment pays off a hell of a lot more than luck any day.
I can't tell you how much I needed to read this tonight. I have posted
occasionally here, but I am having a hard time reading this NG for some
reason......
I have been trying so hard to be "noble" in my actions that I even
started to convince myself that I was "OK" in my feelings. I'm not. I
have hit such a point of anger and rage in the last couple of weeks
that
I have been literally pacing around and yelling at my ex in my head.
One of his insults to me was that I was too "cold and unfeeling" to
ever
be hurt by the end of our marriage (that was why he felt justified in
lashing out and purposely hurting me). He said I would probably jump
into bed with the first man who came along.....that I never really
loved
him. At the time, I brushed this off (as much as I could), because I
was
pretty used to his rages. But, I found out tonight that he had a woman
staying with him last weekend. She stayed with him in the bed that he
is
supposed to give me in the divorce settlement.
I don't know if I am hurt by the fact that he has moved on (even though
I am truly relieved to be out of such an insane relationship), or if I
am hurt because of his wounding words towards me when he's doing that
very thing himself....while I'm sitting here trying to sort through
this
emotional mess.
Maybe its both...I don't know.
In any case, I spent far too long trying to fix this relationship.....I
stayed so long because he did get help. The bottom line, though, is
that
he clung to the dysfunction. There were great weeks, but the fear
kicked
in and it all came back......for both of us.
I was talking to an old sobriety friend last week who got separated
around the same time that I did (1 1/2 years ago). He questioned my
choice to not date for awhile.....said I had already not been dating
for
so long. I may not have been dating, but we were still completely
enmeshed, trying to "fix" our relationship. I wanted to follow my
friend's advice and start dating......but I won't. That would be asking
for a repeat performance, really. *I* have to change first. It's not
even about getting ready for the next relationship (....well, not
*totally* anyway :), but about wanting to love myself, wanting to
really
like myself, value who I am and what I believe in. It's shocking to me
how much of that I gave away in my marriage. It's time to get "me"
back......for good.
Chris Gray
(Alone can't be worse than abused)
I LOVE this sig line, Chris. Thanks.
From: Tara G - view profile
Date: Sun, Mar 5 2000 12:00 am
Email: Tara G <***@gateway.net>
Groups: alt.recovery.codependency
: I have been trying so hard to be "noble" in my actions that I even
: started to convince myself that I was "OK" in my feelings. I'm not. I
: have hit such a point of anger and rage in the last couple of weeks that
: I have been literally pacing around and yelling at my ex in my head.
This says that you are not finished with this relationship, You still have
a few loose ends to tie up and throw away.
You know.....I didn't respond to this post because I found myself
denying this completely. It's so true. I've been waking up and sobbing
for two hours every day because of the pain of letting go (or, more
truthfully....NOT letting go).
I've gone to 8 Alanon meetings in the last three days....and, for the
first time, I really feel like I belong there. I resented Alanon a bit
because it was one of the things he had been doing to get "help". Al I
saw it doing for him was reinforcing his "right" to get angry. I
figured
that if that's the kind of distorted help HE was getting....well, I
wasn't sure that was what I wanted.
I had a realization on wednesday night. I treated his anger cylces like
I would have an alcoholic with their drinking. I really thought that
*I*
could do something to prevent them, controll them, or reduce tham. I
knew in my head that I couldn't , but I still acted as though I could
"fix" it. I'm still a bit stuck in that. Whith that realization came an
understanding of my own anger patterns in the relationship (I didn't
think that I had any).
I'm not even sure now that I *want* to let go. I found myself sobbing
and screaming "NO" over and over the other morning.
For now, I have come to a descision that, for now, seems to be a
workable compromise for me. I had always demanded, berated, pleaded for
him to work on "his anger problem"....but I never just asked.
I bought a book today on rage cycles (that describes him to a TEE)
that,
for the first time gives me some hope. I even saw some of my own
behaviors in the book (the "sneaky anger", "the cold shoulder",
"shaming
and beratement"). We talked last week for a few hours. nothing resolved
at all (in fact, I know that I was left with more confusion), but the
lines of communication were opened in a productive way.
We are scheduled to sit down and speak next week. I want to ask him if
he would be willing to read that book. No demanding, no threatening, no
shaming....just asking. It is the last risk that I am willing to take
for our marriage, but it is one I have not even tried....just simple
asking. I have said "I need you to....", "I want you to....", and the
all dreaded "you HAVE to....", but I have never just asked.
What I realized today is that is one of the things that I couldn't live
with in him.....he never just asked. And, turns out I've been doing the
same thing. I kind of knew that, but I wanted HIM to get better first.
Now I know that *I* have to practice this stuff....and turn the results
over. He may say "No". I have to let go of that. He may read it and end
up throwing at the wall and tell me I'm nutso. I have to let go of
that.
I just want to try asking, without having a silent (or not-so-silent)
ultimatum or "do it or else".
I've been trying to figure out *why* I want to do this. Truth is, I'm
not totally sure. If he reads it and it makes a difference,
well.....that would be wonderful....whether or not we stay together. If
he doesn't......at least I asked.
: One of his insults to me was that I was too "cold and unfeeling" to ever
: be hurt by the end of our marriage (that was why he felt justified in
: lashing out and purposely hurting me). He said I would probably jump
: into bed with the first man who came along.....that I never really loved
: him. At the time, I brushed this off (as much as I could), because I was
: pretty used to his rages. But, I found out tonight that he had a woman
: staying with him last weekend. She stayed with him in the bed that he is
: supposed to give me in the divorce settlement.
He was transfering his feelings to you in order to justify his behavior.
Trade that bed for cash, dont let it become an issue.
He has been angry lately, so I didn't think that was going to be a
possibility. When we had our long talk, I was able to tell him how much
that hurt me (and I cried in front of him from hurt....not anger....I'd
never done tha before with him). He's going to buy me a new bed.
<snip>
Rule of thumb: It takes two years to grieve the end of a long term
relationship. Sometimes longer. Sometimes a little shorter. You're doing
the right thing here but be open to what your HP sends you: Don't be doing
the Right Thing when the Right One comes along.
I was running around so raw and in such a panic that I had completley
lost any connection to HP.....in fact, I haven't had a connection for
*years*.
On Monday (a reeeeeaaaallllyy bad day) I ran to an AA meeting. Topic
was: the chapter "We Agnostics". I almost left. I stayed. I didn't get
tons out of the meeting, but the kernal was planted. I had forgotten
about this stuff.
A friend offered to meditate with me, so I did it.....it helped so much
that I have incorporated this into my daily routine. It helps keep
things managable.
Thanks tpatrick!
Tara